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France elects a socialist

  • 81 Alumnus said...

    You don't know what you're talking about. The Democratic controlled congress and senate passed and Clinton signed an increase in the top marginal tax rates in 1993. The GOP roared it would be the end of the world. Revenues soared, although they cut the growth in spending too, and deficits plunged as soon as they went into effect.

    That's real numbers,.as is the longest economic expansion in history.

    Late in his second term, I think in 1998, Clinton signed a bill passed by the GOP controlled congress that lowered Reagan's capital gains tax increase as part of a negotiation to get other things, I think an increase in Reagan's Earned Income Tax Credit. Not sure that was it though.

    Funny you want to pass a law telling politicians they can't lie and you just did.

    Obviously you can not read or comprehend because nothing I said is a lie. Maybe I should spell it out. Clinton did nothing good for our economy except sign a Republican bill that balanced the budget for a few seconds. Raising the top marginal tax rates was a mistake and did not increase revenues at all. You check the facts. The deficit did not decrease until the spending cuts went into effect.

    Again, selective memory and the mantra of saying it enough makes it true. As I tell my students, read and comprehend for yourself, don't take any single person's word on anything, especially in politics.

    dodgerblue42312

  • dodgerblue-42 said...

    Les Français sont des grenouilles et mendier pour nous de les enregistrer à nouveau dans un proche avenir. À l'heure actuelle, ils obtiennent ce qu'ils méritent.

    I think France will be fine. Historically they are a fairly independent and powerful nation on the continent. Yes, we helped them during WWII, but that aside France has done quite well on its own.

    signature image signature image signature image

    "Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    joetheogre

  • joetheogre said...

    I think France will be fine. Historically they are a fairly independent and powerful nation on the continent. Yes, we helped them during WWII, but that aside France has done quite well on its own.

    Maybe, maybe not. If they follow through with the idea that the wealthy will be paying 75%(depends on loop holes, as well, like we had under Ike)...eventually, they will decline. You cannot punish success and thrive...it cannot happen. There is a reason why we are the wealthiest most powerful country in the world...and they are not.

    maxcy124sc90

  • 81 Alumnus said...

    ... That's real numbers,.as is the longest economic expansion in history. ...

    bush inherited a recession from clinton.

    signature image signature image

    "Crito, I owe a cock to Asclepius; will you remember to pay the debt?"

    dutch30805

  • dodgerblue-42 said...

    Les Français sont des grenouilles et mendier pour nous de les enregistrer à nouveau dans un proche avenir. À l'heure actuelle, ils obtiennent ce qu'ils méritent.

    I bet you call them American fries as well. cheers

    Some folks call ‘em French Fried Potaters, I call ‘em American Fries mmm

    Frogs seem a little much and somewhat demeaning ... to the frogs. There is certainly no love lost between me an them although ma belle-mère est canadienne-française so I deal the best that I can.

    As it stands right now - I don't think too many countries are wanting us to save them right now although I'm sure they would take any bail out money - I mean stimulus money - Mr Obama throws their way.

    This post was edited by johnhunt on 5/8/2012 at 5:53 PM

    johnhunt

  • maxcy124sc90 said...

    Maybe, maybe not. If they follow through with the idea that the wealthy will be paying 75%(depends on loop holes, as well, like we had under Ike)...eventually, they will decline. You cannot punish success and thrive...it cannot happen. There is a reason why we are the wealthiest most powerful country in the world...and they are not.

    Perhaps you may be right and their policies will fail.

    This isn't directed at you, but France is a big boy, so to speak, and historically have been able to take care of themselves. Dodger insinuated that they would fall on their face (which has rarely happened) and that we would have to bail them out again (Which we have only had to do once).

    France is a pretty robust nation. Not a superpower, but capable of handling themselves. I expect they will be fine and get out of any mess they get into, just as they have done for the last 1250 years..

    This post was edited by joetheogre on 5/8/2012 at 2:47 PM

    signature image signature image signature image

    "Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    joetheogre

  • before departing via air france lets not forget a few salient points in re the french:

    without the french we would still be kissing the ass of the queen of england. personally, i say thank you france. i know you went overboard and chopped off some heads, but truly, some surely deserved chopping. when to chop when to stop. ah, the questions of live

    second, while mocked for their lack of military prowness, please consider their having been in the way of the germans, leading them to see entire generations of young men be buried in intractable trench warfare. the americans arrived late in the game and lost some men but in ww1 the french lost more than just flesh the war was on their turf and it was destroying to land as well as people. then the french got in the way of the germans again, who propagate well and kill people exceedingly well

    shit, if the french could have just been located in asia somewhere they would be kick ass

    now, some freedom fries and recall no france no freedom from odious oppression'

    we were not odiously oppressed for that matter

    Aaron Burr Cock

  • Aaron Burr Cock said...

    before departing via air france lets not forget a few salient points in re the french:

    without the french we would still be kissing the ass of the queen of england. personally, i say thank you france. i know you went overboard and chopped off some heads, but truly, some surely deserved chopping. when to chop when to stop. ah, the questions of live

    second, while mocked for their lack of military prowness, please consider their having been in the way of the germans, leading them to see entire generations of young men be buried in intractable trench warfare. the americans arrived late in the game and lost some men but in ww1 the french lost more than just flesh the war was on their turf and it was destroying to land as well as people. then the french got in the way of the germans again, who propagate well and kill people exceedingly well

    shit, if the french could have just been located in asia somewhere they would be kick ass

    now, some freedom fries and recall no france no freedom from odious oppression'

    we were not odiously oppressed for that matter

    Our contribution to WWI in the grand scheme of the war was essentially zilch. In terms of casualties we represent only 1-2% of men killed. Yes, we contributed economically, but our allies had a handle on things. The French and Brits were doing quite well, our entering of the war only hastened the end.

    signature image signature image signature image

    "Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche

    joetheogre

  • dodgerblue-42 said...

    Obviously you can not read or comprehend because nothing I said is a lie. Maybe I should spell it out. Clinton did nothing good for our economy except sign a Republican bill that balanced the budget for a few seconds. Raising the top marginal tax rates was a mistake and did not increase revenues at all. You check the facts. The deficit did not decrease until the spending cuts went into effect.

    Again, selective memory and the mantra of saying it enough makes it true. As I tell my students, read and comprehend for yourself, don't take any single person's word on anything, especially in politics.

    I guess as you tell these lies, you aren't aware that they keep track of these things and post it on the world-wide interwebs.

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10871/historicaltables.pdf

    Let's review some of your lies.

    You lied: "Raising the top marginal tax rates was a mistake and did not increase revenues at all."
    Reality: Clinton raised the top marginal tax rate in 1993 without a single Republican vote as they said it would wreck the economy. In the next fiscal year, 1994, federal revenues increased by over $100 billion, more than they had increased in the previous three years combined and the largest one year increase ever up to that time.

    You lied: "Clinton did nothing good for our economy except sign a Republican bill that balanced the budget for a few seconds. The deficit did not decrease until the spending cuts went into effect. "
    Reality: The deficit decreased immediately after the Clinton tax cuts for only the second time in the preceeding eight years. It decreased every year of the Clinton administration.

    You lied: "Clinton did nothing good for our economy except sign a Republican bill that balanced the budget for a few seconds."
    Reality: Under Clinton the budget was balanced and in fact in surplus of as much as $200 billion for FOUR years, half his time in office, more years than in the preceeding forty years combined and the National Debt decreased for four straight year for the first time since Andrew Jackson was president.

    And the good news is its all right there in writing:
    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10871/historicaltables.pdf

    And BTW , Dubya told the same lies you did. He said his tax cuts for the wealthy of 2001 would charge up the economy and increase federal revenues. Instead federal revenues dropped for each of the first four years after his tax cut for the wealthy, and in four years we went from $236 billion dollar surplus to a $400 billion dollar deficit.

    Read it and weep, liar:
    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10871/historicaltables.pdf

    This post was edited by 81 Alumnus on 5/8/2012 at 3:40 PM

    signature image

    81 Alumnus

  • joetheogre said...

    Our contribution to WWI in the grand scheme of the war was essentially zilch. In terms of casualties we represent only 1-2% of men killed. Yes, we contributed economically, but our allies had a handle on things. The French and Brits were doing quite well, our entering of the war only hastened the end.

    well, our casualties were quite low compared to the brits and french, but do not downplay the importance of america to the victory. far from having things well in hand, europe was devastated in 1917 and if everybody concerned did not know the americans were coming and that there were many more behind them if needed, this was what pushed the germans over the brink

    no american troops you are looking more at a stalemate with perhaps a final peace involving germany going back to its borders in the west, perhaps keeping some of russia.

    our food our materiel and finally our troops, we did make a huge difference. but we did not suffer anything like the europeans. piddling actually in total number of deaths but not piddling in deciding who won

    Aaron Burr Cock

  • Aaron Burr Cock said...

    a german taking on snooty french airs. do you fancy pictures too? let me guess, monet

    Mahatma, as a man of the people I thought you would have a better understanding and appreciation of the renaissance attitude prevalent everywhere but at your house.

    You are aware of the Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen territory once a French region ceded to Germany following the Franco Prussian war. It has a lengthy history of going back and forth between the two countries. French as well as German is spoken by most.

    The same is true when you travel up through Luxemburg. There is a prevalent trilingual presence there. Many among our Barnyard military community may have (fond) memories of Reforger and making the trek there to secure a caravan of deuce and a half’s for the exercise.

    As an art critic and aficionado, I'm sure you are aware Germany is known more for its architecture than its art. Oddly Hitler was quite the artist – he was somewhat of the Thomas Kinkade of his time.

    Italy and France were much better known for their masters in the art world; even the Dutch had more world renowned artists. Monet?...not so much – I much prefer a Leroy Neiman or for grits and grins a nice Jackson Pollack.

    johnhunt

  • Alum81...jimeny crickets! Breathe in...breathe out(repeat)
    Let's try to have a reasonable debate without the liar stuff...I see some very false premises in your arguments but it doesn't necessarily make you a liar...blindly partisan maybe, but not a liar...I've been known to be stubborn myself
    It's nice to have lots of folks in these discussions...especially those who at least try to support their opinions...let's keep it civil so we can continue...just asking

    maxcy124sc90

  • maxcy124sc90 said...

    Alum81...jimeny crickets! Breathe in...breathe out(repeat) Let's try to have a reasonable debate without the liar stuff...I see some very false premises in your arguments but it doesn't necessarily make you a liar...blindly partisan maybe, but not a liar...I've been known to be stubborn myself It's nice to have lots of folks in these discussions...especially those who at least try to support their opinions...let's keep it civil so we can continue...just asking

    Dude, these are numbers. They write this stuff down and keep ledgers.

    Example, when a guy insults me and says that Clinton's tax increase in 1993 didn't increase federal revenues at all, and the Congressional Budget Office, which I provided the links to, says they produced what was at the time the LARGEST one year increase in federal revenues in US history, that my friend is a lie. A whopper in fact.

    As the late Pat Moynihan said, "you have the right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts."

    Let's review the chronology. I posted facts about the Clinton tax increase of 1993. Dodgerblue42 comes on and insults me tells me how wrong I am and doubles down, says I should do my research but offers no links himself. I point out he's lying with links to the CBO, in fact telling a really big lie. You say nothing to him but call me partisan! LOL! I believe the term is hypocrisy.

    The only thing I've ever posted on this board that was not factual was that the Canal Zone wasn't a legal entity in 1934. I acknowledged my mistake, apologized and thanked the poster for the correction. It's called being a grown-up . Wonder when DodgerBlue42 will do the same. Since we're on the subject of breathing, I wouldn't hold mine until he does.

    So take the etiquette lecture somewhere else. No mods have deleted any of my threads for personal insults.

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by 81 Alumnus on 5/8/2012 at 9:18 PM

    signature image

    81 Alumnus

  • 81 Alumnus said...

    Dude, these are numbers. They write this stuff down and keep ledgers.

    Example, when a guy insults me and says that Clinton's tax increase in 1993 didn't increase federal revenues at all, and the Congressional Budget Office, which I provided the links to, says they produced what was at the time the LARGEST one year increase in federal revenues in US history, that my friend is a lie. A whopper in fact.

    As the late Pat Moynihan said, "you have the right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts."

    So take the etiquette lecture somewhere else. No mods have deleted any of my threads for personal insults.

    Didn't mean to lecture....next time I will keep my mouth shut...I didn't look into the #'s that you or Dutch posted....and it's not necessarily the facts that I disagree with(although the CBO is many time 'garbage-in...garbage-out' and can be easily manipulated) It's how we interpret those facts I suppose.

    maxcy124sc90

  • maxcy124sc90 said...

    Didn't mean to lecture....next time I will keep my mouth shut...I didn't look into the #'s that you or Dutch posted....and it's not necessarily the facts that I disagree with(although the CBO is many time 'garbage-in...garbage-out' and can be easily manipulated) It's how we interpret those facts I suppose.

    The official historical budget numbers from the non-partisan CBO are easily manipulated. Wow
    Newsflash, kid, Bill Clinton didn't run two wars off-budget like Dubya did.

    Don't keep your mouth shut. Take a second and look things up for yourself and back up what you say.

    signature image

    81 Alumnus

  • 81 Alumnus said...

    ... The only thing I've ever posted on this board that wasn't not factual was that the Canal Zone wasn't a legal entity in 1934. ...

    well there WAS the time you argued bush 2 didn't inherit a recession because the recession began two months after he took office.

    also "wasn't not factual" = "was factual." just pointing that out because i quoted you saying it. I know what you meant and owning up to your mistake was very big boy of you should do some more of it

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by dutch30805 on 5/8/2012 at 9:06 PM

    signature image signature image

    "Crito, I owe a cock to Asclepius; will you remember to pay the debt?"

    dutch30805

  • dutch30805 said...

    well there WAS the time you argued bush 2 didn't inherit a recession because the recession began two months after he took office.

    also "wasn't not factual" = "was factual." just pointing that out because i quoted you saying it. I know what you meant and owning up to your mistake was very big boy of you should do some more of it

    Now you're ragging me for typos! When do you sleep? Obviously I meant "wasn't factual" or "was not factual." Thanks for catching it for me so I could correct it.

    BTW, as John Hunt said to you, "is you or is you ain't a birther?"

    signature image

    81 Alumnus

  • Delicious Tacos said...

    Situations like this are Sweden developed into the hellhole it is today!

    Hellhole? Maybe ... but they definitely got some hot women - back in the day I "spent" many special evenings together with Agnetha Fältskog.

    Play

    ABBA - TAKE A CHANCE ON ME

    Video for one of my favourite ABBA tracks; always puts me in a good mood!

    http://www.youtube.com/v/-UvtOQnPE5c

    johnhunt

  • johnhunt said...

    Mahatma, as a man of the people I thought you would have a better understanding and appreciation of the renaissance attitude prevalent everywhere but at your house.

    You are aware of the Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen territory once a French region ceded to Germany following the Franco Prussian war. It has a lengthy history of going back and forth between the two countries. French as well as German is spoken by most.

    The same is true when you travel up through Luxemburg. There is a prevalent trilingual presence there. Many among our Barnyard military community may have (fond) memories of Reforger and making the trek there to secure a caravan of deuce and a half’s for the exercise.

    As an art critic and aficionado, I'm sure you are aware Germany is known more for its architecture than its art. Oddly Hitler was quite the artist – he was somewhat of the Thomas Kinkade of his time.

    Italy and France were much better known for their masters in the art world; even the Dutch had more world renowned artists. Monet?...not so much – I much prefer a Leroy Neiman or for grits and grins a nice Jackson Pollack.

    oh i know the germans are real thinkers and all and even hitler had some artistic bent.
    einstein was german. very very smart people

    but they have a penchant for wanting to take over continents.

    Aaron Burr Cock

  • dodgerblue-42 said...

    Your memory is selective. Clinton did not do anything. The Republican controlled House/Senate balanced the budget despite the Dems. Lowering income taxes always increases tax revenue, check history. The problem is that there are 536 elected officials in Washington who have never met a penny of other peoples' money that they did not spend,,,, plus some.

    We should force a new law to be passed... elected officials cannot lie to the people (funny that you go to jail if you lie to Congress), then let's see how much political progress we make with all of their "secrets" out in the open on pork...

    We are very close in age but my memories of the '60s/'70s/'80s/'90s have made me more conservative than I ever thought possible. Taxes are not the answer. smaller go'vt, lower taxes, job creation, and most importantly, personal responsibility are the answer.

    Actually revenues decreased immediately after the bush tax cuts, which is one of the few times that has happened.

    In expanding economies, such as the u.s. Has typically been, revenues generally increase regardless of rates. Typically rate changes do not outweigh expansion.

    Mathematically, the idea that cutting taxes leads to more revenue is dubious and the evidence does not suggest that it is effective in practice.

    VBCock

  • The French like a of the European countries except Germany were unprepared for ww 2 and were well behind the Germans in technology and tactics.

    When the Germans upset the paradigm from precious wars and flanked them, the war was over. They did not have the luxury of retreating across the English channel in disarray.

    You can debate about Vichy and collaboration, but there were free French units and French resistance during the war.

    Historically, the French were a formidable military power of course.

    VBCock

  • 81 Alumnus said...

    The official historical budget numbers from the non-partisan CBO are easily manipulated. Wow Newsflash, kid, Bill Clinton didn't run two wars off-budget like Dubya did.

    Don't keep your mouth shut. Take a second and look things up for yourself and back up what you say.

    Example...CBO was given info on Obamacare which included 2 years extra of taxes before it actually began...making it seem more economical(if a trillion can be economical). The CBO can only calculate what they are given...so they can be manipulated.
    That was my point.

    I do not want to rehash, or relive the Clinton years...or Bush for that matter...it would take a novel to sort all of that out
    I must say I'm no fan of Clinton, but I would take 8 years of Bill over 4 yrs of Obama anytime.

    maxcy124sc90

  • VBCock said...

    Actually revenues decreased immediately after the bush tax cuts, which is one of the few times that has happened.

    In expanding economies, such as the u.s. Has typically been, revenues generally increase regardless of rates. Typically rate changes do not outweigh expansion.

    Mathematically, the idea that cutting taxes leads to more revenue is dubious and the evidence does not suggest that it is effective in practice.

    So the idea that if the gov. "allows" the private sector to keep more of it's own money...which will be spent and invested and spur more economic activity is mathematically dubious? Certainly there is a point of diminishing returns, however, I believe that point to be lower rather than higher.
    Of course, regardless of where that point actually is, the government should be taking only what is absolutely needed...because it's not their money(which is contrary to the liberal mindset on this subject imo).

    Could/should the government perhaps consider trying to scrape by on maybe just a couple trillion a year? At times I really don't think we're asking the right questions.

    This post was edited by maxcy124sc90 on 5/9/2012 at 10:54 AM

    maxcy124sc90

  • maxcy124sc90 said...

    So the idea that if the gov. "allows" the private sector to keep more of it's own money...which will be spent and invested and spur more economic activity is mathematically dubious? Certainly there is a point of diminishing returns, however, I believe that point to be lower rather than higher.
    Of course, regardless of where that point actually is, the government should be taking only what is absolutely needed...because it's not their money(which is contrary to the liberal mindset on this subject imo).

    Could/should the government perhaps consider trying to scrape by on maybe just a couple trillion a year? At times I really don't think we're asking the right questions.

    That sounds nice and we all might like it better but the evidence doesn't seem to support the idea particularly.

    When you talk about deficits you are talking about defense, health care and social security. All popular things that are mostly untouchable for all intents and purposes.

    I do think age eligibility for social security and Medicare should be raised barring early medical disability. And we should scale back defense spending to the point where we are not ready to take on the entire world combined on two fronts. It is an imperial arrogance that we cannot afford. And we probably need to raise taxes as well.

    VBCock

  • VBCock said...

    That sounds nice and we all might like it better but the evidence doesn't seem to support the idea particularly.

    When you talk about deficits you are talking about defense, health care and social security. All popular things that are mostly untouchable for all intents and purposes.

    I do think age eligibility for social security and Medicare should be raised barring early medical disability. And we should scale back defense spending to the point where we are not ready to take on the entire world combined on two fronts. It is an imperial arrogance that we cannot afford. And we probably need to raise taxes as well.

    We can certainly curtail defense spending and the age for social security should have been raised a long time ago...glad to see you don't just take the dem. party line on this. I'm not sure what you mean by healthcare being in the untouchable category. I definitely disagree regarding taxes and the entire premise behind it.

    maxcy124sc90