The Barnyard

At the state level, and I know this thread started talking about state politics, I agree with you on the obstructionism. We did however shift to Congress and the Federal level and there I feel the blame goes to both sides of the aisle. It is somewhat by design with the three branches of government and "control" shifting back and forth, but the divide between the two parties seems to be further apart than ever. My point is that we have the extremists on both sides going back and forth while the majority of us are caught in the middle pretty disgusted with both.

I agree 100% that the divide is getting larger. You won't believe this but I also am an independent. I have never voted a straight ticket in my life and I have donated to specific candidates for both parties, at both the state and federal level. However, I look at what has happened since 2008 and the republican party is leaving me behind. The fact they have moved so far right, means I am now closer to the left than I used to be.

You talk about extremism and I agree that is a huge problem. Current republicans have used the filibuster at completely unprecedented levels just for the sake of obstructionism. They are willing and hoping they have the opportunity again to not raise the debt ceiling just so they can trash te economy, as long as it's on Obama's watch. The democrats' extremists are the same place they were 5-10 years ago. The republicans' extremists are kicking all of the reasonable republicans out of office.

A false equivalence by blaming both sides equally is, in my view, not reflective of reality. When republicans have gone to such extremes to purposefully crash the economy and prevent jobs bills so they can vote on abortion and contempt issues, there needs to be some accountability by the American people to show them that it is not acceptable to play such political games with our lives. Generically blaming both sides in the name of "false equivalence" is coddling those obstructionists and extremists, and it goes against the very concept of accountability.

I want to be clear here, I agree with you 110% that we are dis-functional and I agree 110% that debates should be civil and reasonable. I admire your desire for these goals. Our differences appear to be based on how to remedy the problem. I have seen a republican party move so far right and they need to be held accountable by voters for their extremism and obstructionism.

I know you won't believe me being an independent but it is true. But I look at reality right now and it is sickening. GOP members of congress to this day continue to promote birtherism. Calling our own president a socialist is now acceptable public discourse. I do not vote on party affiliation or even stances on specific issues. I vote for the candidate I think is capable of high-quality, deliberate decision making. I also vote for candidates whose primary concern is the American people, not the political aspirations of their party. I look at these ideals and I see problems happening.

Independence acknowledged and I do agree with most of your points.

Person (A) goes to work...5-6 days per weeks...puts in 50 hrs a week...Pays federal taxes(which get redistributed), pays state taxes(redistributed), sales tax("), property taxes("), gas taxes, fines, fees, etc...when all is said and done he/she pays over 50% of his labor to the government...which then redistributes it. He/she must make sacrifices...skip a vacation, live in a smaller house, buy cheaper clothes, smaller Christmas for the children, less prestigious college for the kids, etc...etc..

My question is...are any of you liberals capable of sympathizing with this person? Or are all of your sympathies directed elsewhere?

Most people I know who you'd consider liberal are in this exact situation, so I'm pretty sure they can sympathize.

I've paid income tax, property tax, business property tax, capital gains tax, gas tax, use tax, medicare and social security tax, unemployment and fica taxes for my employees. I've easily paid over $2 million dollars in taxes. My dad owned a small business and when he died when I was a kid in 1974, because the threshold for inheritance tax was so low back then, I've paid inheritance tax at the age of 14.

I've met literally a thousand payrolls in my day. I've put a kid through college and about to put another. I've been wealthy and I've been dirt poor. I've worked 70 or 80 hours a week plenty of times. I've given a shitload to charity and I've needed charity at times to take care of my family. I went to public schools and got two degrees from a public university courtesy of the taxpayers and I've paid taxes to give others the same opportunity.

And I've never griped and moaned one iota about a tiny piece of my taxes going to help some fellow American who needs some medicine to live and can't afford insurance or the medicine, no matter what the reason he or she's in that fix. In fact it's a Goddamned honor.

I've griped a plenty about it going to stupid wars based on lies, massive welfare to oil companies and Boeing and tax breaks for Bain Capital to buy companies, strip them of all their cash, send the jobs to China and leave taxpayers like me to pick up the tab for their poor employees left without promised pensions.

So get off your high horse. Mr. Victim.

I certainly sympathize with those who pay heavy taxes, but you have to realize that without them we wouldn't have the services we have today. A world without government is not a world I think you would want to live in - think of the late 1800s. Yes, some made it big, but many others lost everything and were reduced to abject poverty. I would rather live in a world where the taxes are higher but the valleys are much lower.

I don't expect I will ever be in the highest income brackets, but if I do find myself making 100, 150, 250k+ a year, I would have zero problem paying heavy taxes to support government and to support social programs.

We tried an almost complete laissez-faire style economy with little government for about fifty years (1865-1915) in this country. Among the highlights:

- market crashes ruined lives
- people starved to death
- disease was rampant with no food/sanitation regulations
- horses literally dropped dead in the street and no one bothered to pick their carcasses up.
- people living in poor tenement houses
- There was often violent labor unrest
- racial discrimination (Irish, Eastern Europeans, blacks) was prominent in hiring/firing
- no sewer/sanitation system
- public schools were for the most part poor
- monopolies were formed and exploited the market

I will submit to heavy taxes, regulation, and the occasional abuses of the welfare system if it means I don't have to deal with any of these issues.

This is something that many, not all, of the Republicans on this board have a problem realizing, namely, they keep track of all this stuff.

It's a mathematical fact that taxes haven't been this low since the 1920's. Never mind FDR, taxes were much higher under Reagan than under Obama.

And the % that goes to social programs is miniscule. Now entitlement programs that primarily benefit the upper and middle classes(Social Security and Medicare) are huge. But except for Dubya's Medicare Drug program they are self-sustaining from payroll taxes, which command a much higher % of actual income from the middle class and working poor than the wealthy, BTW.

You can go to www.omb.gov and see it all for yourself.

Another straw man...I don't think I've ever read anyone saying that there should be no taxes. I will reiterate, the idea that Haley or Sanford, or any other person trying to be a responsible steward of the taxpayer's hard earned money is some sort of evil person who hates old people and children is despicable. Some on this board begin every argument with this premise. "Control the language, and you control the argument".

You continue to ignore the facts as stated by Haley herself about the reason for these vetoes including eliminating life saving drugs for AIDS patients.

It's to pay for corporate tax cuts.

If Nimrata Haley just loves with all her heart AIDS patients on Medicaid in South Carolina, what good does that do them since they're now going to die, literally, no hyperbole, unless the vetoes are overridden.

The Bible says "by a man's ACTIONS(caps mine) shall you know him." It applies to Sikh women too.

Far be it from me to accuse you of being young and naive but you're sounding a little like Dr Evil when he tried to hold the world hostage for one million dollars.

100K even 250K would only put you in the upper middle class. Also it's very easy in a pollyanna way to say you wouldn't mind paying heavy taxes when you pay very little now...most students pay no income tax and most who do would probably get a refund.