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johnhunt ●
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johnhunt said...
Both would be excellent avenues to explore however I think the larger issue is how far should teachers be allowed to go with putting their own personal views or agenda on the table and then giving their personal beliefs greater weight than the views or opinions of the students especially if they are in opposition to those of the teacher.
It seems to me teachers often feel they have a bully pulpit and as such, carte blanch to espouse and opine their personal agenda and, as apparently in this instance, determine that a student’s view is deemed to trivialize an issue and therefore should be marginalized at best or completely discounted at worst.
That the decision was reversed may be as a result of the initial instruction which was to write a report on any subject. The reversal was, to me, secondary and would have been unnecessary had the teacher been more open to free flowing thought.
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CockAtLaw said...
My two cents: the guy is an english teacher meaning his job is to teach and grade the ability of a student to compose grammatically correct sentences and structure thoughts on paper to convey ideas. It doesn't matter if the student is talking about guns, sex, rock 'n roll, whatever, it doesn't matter. If the teacher wanted to read papers on particular topics, he should have said so beforehand, not after the fact.
I would suggest to you that the concern you raise about the bully pulpit and agendas is not near the first amendment issue the student thinks it is. It is extremely clear that a student's rights in school may be and often times are reduced from the rights everyday citizens enjoy in public. The first amendment may be limited more in the school setting, just as the second and fourth may be as well. No rights are absolute, especially in a specialized setting that involves the interests of other citizens.
People say first amendment this, second amendment that all the time when trying to demonize someone else, but no rights are absolute, and people can have different opinions as to what balancing is necessary to achieve legitimate governmental objectives while protecting, to the extent possible, various rights. This kid is trying to demonize the teacher; in my opinion, this is not a constitutional issue at all, but rather a dispute between a mis-guided teacher and a student who feels like trying to make a point by alleging a first amendment violation.
The child alleges his first amendment rights are violated because the teacher wouldn't accept a paper about guns. Well, would there still be a violation if the teacher told the class beforehand they couldn't write about guns? Or lets go even further and say the teacher told the class they must write about giraffes, no other topics would be allowed. Because the student is now not free to write about guns, is that a first amendment violation? In my opinion, this isn't a first amendment issue. This involves a teacher who after-the-fact decided to not follow the rules he himself established, and a child who was upset by that decision. The teacher is wrong to not accept the paper, but the child is showing he truly is in need of an education by trying to turn this into a constitutional issue.
This post was edited by Thomas Sumter on 2/21/2013 at 3:50 PM
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Thomas Sumter said...
I think it's a close call. I know of several opinions dealing with schools and protests and school newspapers, but I'm not aware of any opinons dealing with poor grades based solely on the content of an essay.
If this were a public school, and If the teacher gave him an F and the school affirmed the F and put it on his permanent grades all because of a non-threatening and non-obsence topic he chose, I could see a court finding a 1st Amendment violation.
Like I said, it's a close call, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Would the 1st amendment be violated if a school says "write an essay about why would you vote for a certain candidate," and then gives an F to everyone who writes support for Romney? I thnk so.
And, no, there would be no 1st Amendment violation if the teacher told him the choice of topics in advance. The issue I see is when the teacher says "write on anything you want" and then gives him an F simply based on a non-offensive topic.
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CockAtLaw said...
This is an interesting discussion. I am busy tonight but will try to respond tomorrow in more detail and after more thought to the issues you raise.
At the outset, my initial reaction to the situations you raise in your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs (the F and the Romney scenario) is that I still don't really see a 1st amendment violation. There has been no restriction on speech. The student still wrote the paper and turned it in, albeit with a bad grade. Perhaps its possible to find a violation when there is a negative impact, as opposed to a restriction in the first place, but perhaps that is more adequately dealt with under equal protection or due process concerns. I suppose there might be some case law that provides for an after-the-fact impact on speech being equal to a restriction on speech in the first place, but I don't really remember enough to be sure.
Another thought is that is speech really being impacted when the teacher is the only person who was to receive the speech in the first place. This isn't a situation where the teacher said the student couldn't talk about the gun show on school property or to his friends. In the protests and newspaper situations, we are dealing with public discussions or speech to a large number of people. The teacher is not prohibiting the student from these activities, but rather stating that a topic for a paper to be turned in (albeit in hindsight) was not appropriate (wrongly in my opinion). This seems like a different situation than preventing a student from making a public message.
Maybe all of this doesn't matter, but I wanted to put my thoughts down before I was taken away for the evening.
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81 Alumnus said...
So given the SC school teacher fired for his American flag protest last month, I'm gathering the right-wing position is free speech is a right for students in school but not for teachers?
Kinda like being for small government but passing laws making woman have a vaginal probe inserted in her body whether she wants it or not, I guess.
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johnhunt said...
In the interest of objectivity and full disclosure this is the article which was originally referenced.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/21/teacher-refused-to-grade-student-report-on-guns-mother-says/?test=latestnews#ixzz2LZatXzf2
..........................
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Thomas Sumter said...
My thought is that an F grade (if upheld through an administrative process in the public school district) would be an adverse state action based on the content of the speech, sort of like a student being suspended for wearing an Obama shirt while the guy wearing a Romney shirt is not suspended.
In any event, it seems that in this case, the school forced the teacher to grade the paper on the gun-show. So no harm no foul at the end of the day. My scenario is a "what if" it were taken through an administrative process and the district still upheld the bad grade solely based on the essay's topic.
This post was edited by CockAtLaw on 2/22/2013 at 6:59 AM
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Thomas Sumter said...
Damn, you did some westlaw research this morning. :)
I think the issue as far as the grading goes is whether it would be "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns" to uphold this kid's bad grades. Like I said, close call. But I could see how there are no "legitimate pedagogical concerns" if the guy is given an F for writing about hunting or a gunshow and then his grade is upheld by the school board.
The Settle v. Dickson County has a key distinguishing fact in that "Students could choose their own topic, subject to teacher approval." So up front, you know that there are limits on the topic you may choose -- you have to first clear it with the teacher -- unlike this case (and my hypothetical) where the guy is given a bad grade simply for having written about non-offensive, non-obscene content that the teacher rejected it after the fact.
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CockAtLaw said...
I agree that is distinguishing. The O'Neal v. Falcon case that the large passage was pulled from also is distinguishable. While it dealt with a student who alleged an after-the-fact retaliation claim based on the topic of her speech given in a speech class (the topic was abortion which the professor did not like, and her grade was a B- as opposed to the A she thought she deserved), there is a distinction because of the legitimate reasons the professor gave for upholding the lower grade. It is unclear in this case if the teacher gave any such reasons; it appears he did not.
I'm curious as to your thoughts on whether the speech is protected in the first place. I'm not really sure where I lie on this. I remember reading about the whole public forum vs. limited public forum vs. private forum distinctions, and it doesn't seem like a paper that only will be read by the teacher would be anything but a private forum. On the other hand, this is a unique situation where the only listener is a state actor, so it is unclear if the new cases coming out regarding "right to ignore" or "right to listen (or not listen)" would be applicable to state actors.
The big picture, in my mind, is that the first amendment is meant to protect the marketplace of ideas, public speech on matters of public concern. In all other school cases, you're talking about school newspaper articles, or wearing certain shirts or patches, or even holding a "bong hits for Jesus" sign during a parade. All of the speech associated with these activities is intended to reach a broad section of the public. It is intended to be heard by many people to allow for discussion in the marketplace of ideas. In this instance, the child was not prohibited from any of that, there was a teacher who didn't want to read about a certain topic. This doesn't feel like a restriction on free speech to me. Was the teacher wrong in not laying out rules clearly beforehand? Absolutely. However, not every bad decision a teacher makes rises to the level of a constitutional violation, and, in my view, this lies in the former category, not the latter.
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CockAtLaw said...
I agree that is distinguishing.. ...... .....Was the teacher wrong in not laying out rules clearly beforehand? Absolutely. However, not every bad decision a teacher makes rises to the level of a constitutional violation, and, in my view, this lies in the former category, not the latter.
This post was edited by 81 Alumnus on 2/22/2013 at 11:46 AM
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81 Alumnus said...
Your Holiness, I appreciate all of the pro bono work you've put in on this, I really do. But, I tend to fall in with Thomas Sumter that the court decisions are so all over the road on this, it's fairly easy to support disparate points of view.
My question to you though, since you like to research, is drawn from the one I posed in my earlier post. Is there a LEGAL difference in the free speech rights of a teacher, like the one in South Carolina who stomped on the flag, and the free speech rights of a student, such as the one in Texas who was told he couldn't write about guns?
I gotta run to a Friends of Hamas rally, but in all seriousness, I look forward to your response.
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81 Alumnus said...
Your Holiness, I appreciate all of the pro bono work you've put in on this, I really do. But, I tend to fall in with Thomas Sumter that the court decisions are so all over the road on this, it's fairly easy to support disparate points of view.
My question to you though, since you like to research, is drawn from the one I posed in my earlier post. Is there a LEGAL difference in the free speech rights of a teacher, like the one in South Carolina who stomped on the flag, and the free speech rights of a student, such as the one in Texas who was told he couldn't write about guns?
I gotta run to a Friends of Hamas rally, but in all seriousness, I look forward to your response.
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Thomas Sumter said...
It's been more than a decade since I suffered through Wedlock's conlaw class, so I'm not too up to speed on the public forum / limited forum distinctions. I'm not even aware of the new cases about the "right to ignore or "right to listen." I do remember learning about the protests in schools and that, while students have 1st Amendment protections, they do not have the same protections as the average joe, as the school has legitimate reasons to limit speech. I also remember the "Bonghits for Jesus" case but I don't recall the result of that one (the t-shirt made the subject of that case memorable).
I understand what you are saying about this is not a "marketplace of ideas" issue, but I see the hypothetical extension of this case instead as the state punishing someone for simply having an idea. Had the school board upheld the bad grade, it would have been an adverse state action (a bad grade in public school) all because of the content of his speech. He would have been punished for simply expressing a non-offensive and non-obscene idea when he had been invited to write about whatever he wanted to write about.
In the end, the school board nipped it in the bud and did the right thing by forcing the teacher to grade the paper. There was no constitutional violation because it ended there. Had he suffered a permanent bad grade simply because of the content of his paper, it's a close call whether it would be constitutional.
I hesitate to say it's unconstitutional because by this afternoon you will have found an 8th Circuit case on point that tells me otherwise. Just messing with you. Good discussion.
This post was edited by CockAtLaw on 2/22/2013 at 4:12 PM
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CockAtLaw said...
I still have one question about your second paragraph above. I see your concern about the hypothetical extension, but I'm still not sure that completely answers it. You talk about the adverse state action being on the content of the speech, but wouldn't that require the state action to be based on the speech's viewpoint? In this instance, the teacher did not take his action because the paper was pro-gun control or anti-gun control or about the mechanics of how a gun worked or about the historical significance of guns and how they shaped the wild west. It seems that the teacher's action could be seen as content-neutral because it didn't matter what ideas about guns were being conveyed; all viewpoints about guns were being treated equally. This could be seen as viewpoint-neutral because it was the topic that was taboo to the teacher, not the speech or the content of the speech. Restrictions that are viewpoint-neutral may generally be broader than non-neutral restrictions.
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Teacher attempts to step on free speech rights