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Hyman and Horn...Buddies?

  • Are Eric Hyman and Darrin Horn pals? Mixing business and pleasure is never a good combo. Is the reason he wont fire him because he is worried about his family or whatever it is that comes along with firing a friend? Greg Marshall is on the board and needs to be called immediatly. One comparison I have is with Tubby Smith and Kentucky to hiring a new coach. (Hear me out) Tubby smith won a national championship (In his first year with former recruits a la Horn having his most success with Odom's recruits) and averaged 26 wins per season while at UK. Anywhere else these numbers are magnificent, but Kentucky expects to be in the Final Four year in and year out which with there tradition is an attainable one, like Duke Kansas UNC etc...And Smith wasnt getting over that hump, so they hired another coach.
    Now with that said we are in a similar situation, just much worse. We have a coach who did pretty good(for our program) in his first season with Odom's recruits and has gone downhill considerably, obviously. He is not doing what he is expected to do here, which is simply to just at least compete for the SEC and make the NCAA tourney when your kids are mature, which brings up another obvious point in that he has run the guys off who would be "mature" now. So, like Kentucky...dissatisfied we have a coach who is doing unprecedented things with two mid majors in turning programs completely around. We, like UK, need to make the phone call and do what is needed to be done and not worry about giving the guy time to turn this thing around. Marshall does it in no time and I dont see why he cant do it here considering he cares about this University having ties in the state and a recruiting ability to go outside of the state, not to mention his coaching ability which speaks for itself. Throw the ego out the window and make a professional move.

    This post was edited by chucktcock on 2/14/2012 at 11:26 AM

    chucktcock

  • chucktcock said...

    Are Eric Hyman and Darrin Horn pals? Mixing business and pleasure is never a good combo. Is the reason he wont fire him because he is worried about his family or whatever it is that comes along with firing a friend? Greg Marshall is on the board and needs to be called immediatly. One comparison I have is with Tubby Smith and Kentucky to hiring Calipari and the timing of it. (Hear me out) Tubby smith won a national championship (In his first year with former recruits a la Horn having his most success with Odom's recruits) and averaged 26 wins per season while at UK. Anywhere else these numbers are magnificent, but Kentucky expects to be in the Final Four year in and year out which with there tradition is an attainable one, like Duke Kansas UNC etc...And Smith wasnt getting over that hump, so seeing another Coach in Calipari who was taking a Memphis team who had no tradition compared to Uk was playing for a national championship and was recruting at an extremely high level there, they stepped up and made the hire.
    Now with that said we are in a similar situation, just much worse. We have a coach who did pretty good(for our program) in his first season with Odom's recruits and has gone downhill considerably, obviously. He is not doing what he is expected to do here, which is simply to just at least compete for the SEC and make the NCAA tourney when your kids are mature, which brings up another obvious point in that he has run the guys off who would be "mature" now. So, like Kentucky...dissatisfied we have a coach who is doing unprecedented things with two mid majors in turning programs completely around. We, like UK, need to make the phone call and do what is needed to be done and not worry about giving the guy time to turn this thing around. Marshall does it in no time and I dont see why he cant do it here considering he cares about this University having ties in the state and a recruiting ability to go outside of the state, not to mention his coaching ability which speaks for itself. Throw the ego out the window and make a professional move.

    Calipari didn't follow Tubby.

    signature image signature image signature image

    cockfool

  • cockfool said...

    Calipari didn't follow Tubby.

    True, but gillespie doesnt count HAHA. Forgot bout Billy Gillespie but i still think its a comparable point in which we cant be afraid to pull this trigger if we want this thing to turn around. The future guy is out there and if he gets scooped up by a major program people here will want Hymans head, no matter what he has done for facilities.

    This post was edited by chucktcock on 2/14/2012 at 11:28 AM

    chucktcock

  • chucktcock said...

    Are Eric Hyman and Darrin Horn pals? Mixing business and pleasure is never a good combo. Is the reason he wont fire him because he is worried about his family or whatever it is that comes along with firing a friend? Greg Marshall is on the board and needs to be called immediatly. One comparison I have is with Tubby Smith and Kentucky to hiring Calipari and the timing of it. (Hear me out) Tubby smith won a national championship (In his first year with former recruits a la Horn having his most success with Odom's recruits) and averaged 26 wins per season while at UK. Anywhere else these numbers are magnificent, but Kentucky expects to be in the Final Four year in and year out which with there tradition is an attainable one, like Duke Kansas UNC etc...And Smith wasnt getting over that hump, so seeing another Coach in Calipari who was taking a Memphis team who had no tradition compared to Uk was playing for a national championship and was recruting at an extremely high level there, they stepped up and made the hire. Now with that said we are in a similar situation, just much worse. We have a coach who did pretty good(for our program) in his first season with Odom's recruits and has gone downhill considerably, obviously. He is not doing what he is expected to do here, which is simply to just at least compete for the SEC and make the NCAA tourney when your kids are mature, which brings up another obvious point in that he has run the guys off who would be "mature" now. So, like Kentucky...dissatisfied we have a coach who is doing unprecedented things with two mid majors in turning programs completely around. We, like UK, need to make the phone call and do what is needed to be done and not worry about giving the guy time to turn this thing around. Marshall does it in no time and I dont see why he cant do it here considering he cares about this University having ties in the state and a recruiting ability to go outside of the state, not to mention his coaching ability which speaks for itself. Throw the ego out the window and make a professional move.

    I don't think Hyman and Horn's relationship is as buddy/buddy as people think. It is more of a situation where Hyman is going to give his coaches every opportunity in the book. He gave Dave Odom plenty of time to get things going and was willing to give him one more year because of Downey, Fredrick, Archie, Holmes and Muldrow. Hyman felt they were heading in the right direction with that group.

    I think with Horn it is the same way. I have criticized Hyman in the past for his handling of a few financial aspects but it is hard to criticize him for how he treats his coaches. He gives them complete support which in the profession is a great thing. Coaches know they can come work for him and they will be given time to build things the way they see fit. As much of a concern as I have about how much Hyman might be willing to pay the next coach, his record with giving his coaches time to develop is solid and well respected in at least the basketball coaching profession.

    Firing someone is always hard to do and I do think at times Hyman struggles with that but at the same time I believe he knows when he has a bad product. With the product that Horn has coming back next year (Ellington, Leonard, Gill, Harris and maybe Slawson) I can understand Hyman looking at him and believing that next year is the year that there needs to be significant improvement.

    A lot of over the top people will tell you it will set the program back but I don't believe so. South Carolina is not in bad shape talent wise. There needs to be some definite development with players and some changes to the in-game coaching but the program can be turned around and heading in the right direction with a few minor changes.

    Back to the bottom line though, I don't think Hyman has let his relationship with Hyman affect his thinking but instead is going to give him every opportunity to succeed.

    Follow WG on Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillGunter247

    William Gunter

  • William Gunter said...

    I don't think Hyman and Horn's relationship is as buddy/buddy as people think. It is more of a situation where Hyman is going to give his coaches every opportunity in the book. He gave Dave Odom plenty of time to get things going and was willing to give him one more year because of Downey, Fredrick, Archie, Holmes and Muldrow. Hyman felt they were heading in the right direction with that group.

    I think with Horn it is the same way. I have criticized Hyman in the past for his handling of a few financial aspects but it is hard to criticize him for how he treats his coaches. He gives them complete support which in the profession is a great thing. Coaches know they can come work for him and they will be given time to build things the way they see fit. As much of a concern as I have about how much Hyman might be willing to pay the next coach, his record with giving his coaches time to develop is solid and well respected in at least the basketball coaching profession.

    Firing someone is always hard to do and I do think at times Hyman struggles with that but at the same time I believe he knows when he has a bad product. With the product that Horn has coming back next year (Ellington, Leonard, Gill, Harris and maybe Slawson) I can understand Hyman looking at him and believing that next year is the year that there needs to be significant improvement.

    A lot of over the top people will tell you it will set the program back but I don't believe so. South Carolina is not in bad shape talent wise. There needs to be some definite development with players and some changes to the in-game coaching but the program can be turned around and heading in the right direction with a few minor changes.

    Back to the bottom line though, I don't think Hyman has let his relationship with Hyman affect his thinking but instead is going to give him every opportunity to succeed.

    Thanks for the response. I didnt know if it had any affect, which was what the ultimate question was and you answered it. Thanks again. Also, if you have time WG, do you think that not hiring marshall and letting horn continue, impriving or not is the right move. The reason i ask is i feel that Marshall is a once in a lifetime coach for this program. Do you pass this up because hyman "thinks" the program can be turned around?

    chucktcock

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    chucktcock

  • chucktcock said...

    Thanks for the response. I didnt know if it had any affect, which was what the ultimate question was and you answered it. Thanks again. Also, if you have time WG, do you think that not hiring marshall and letting horn continue, impriving or not is the right move. The reason i ask is i feel that Marshall is a once in a lifetime coach for this program. Do you pass this up because hyman "thinks" the program can be turned around?

    I don't think Marshall is the home run hire that everybody thinks he is. I am not completely sold he would be my top candidate if something should happen at South Carolina.

    I know Marshall, spent time with him when at Winthrop and think there are a ton of positives. I think it is a real shame that he was not interviewed the first time the job was open. Again, the first time I am not sure he was the guy but there was zero for him not to at least be given an interview to see how he did.

    Now I think he is still a solid coach. The thing is could he build the staff to recruit at South Carolina. Earl Grant was a key cog in his staff at Winthrop and is now at Clemson. Would he keep Mike Boynton as a tie to the Gamecock program? He probably should but he should would also have to go out and get a big time recruiter that can go throughout the southeast and land guys. He would need two recruiters and again that could be Boynton and another guy. Then could he find the coach to be a bench asset?

    Marshall is an X's and O's guy but also has quite an ego on him and the attitude towards people would be the same as Darrin Horn. If he does that and doesn't produce in four years, how would he be received.

    Follow WG on Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillGunter247

    William Gunter

  • William Gunter said...

    I don't think Marshall is the home run hire that everybody thinks he is. I am not completely sold he would be my top candidate if something should happen at South Carolina.

    I know Marshall, spent time with him when at Winthrop and think there are a ton of positives. I think it is a real shame that he was not interviewed the first time the job was open. Again, the first time I am not sure he was the guy but there was zero for him not to at least be given an interview to see how he did.

    Now I think he is still a solid coach. The thing is could he build the staff to recruit at South Carolina. Earl Grant was a key cog in his staff at Winthrop and is now at Clemson. Would he keep Mike Boynton as a tie to the Gamecock program? He probably should but he should would also have to go out and get a big time recruiter that can go throughout the southeast and land guys. He would need two recruiters and again that could be Boynton and another guy. Then could he find the coach to be a bench asset?

    Marshall is an X's and O's guy but also has quite an ego on him and the attitude towards people would be the same as Darrin Horn. If he does that and doesn't produce in four years, how would he be received.

    Good answer...thanks again. I know the social media has made him out to be a "home run hire." His numbers are awfully impressive though...

    chucktcock

  • William Gunter said...

    A lot of over the top people will tell you it will set the program back but I don't believe so. South Carolina is not in bad shape talent wise. There needs to be some definite development with players and some changes to the in-game coaching but the program can be turned around and heading in the right direction with a few minor changes.

    Wild Bill, I respect the effort you put into covering basketball for TBS and all the other sites you cover while also spending time on 560 The Team (listen almost every day), but I can't believe you actually believe this. This just sounds like talking points from Hyman/Horn and I not buying a word of it.

    1. How can you say that people who view this program as a sinking ship don't have a legit concern that another year with Horn is only going to set us back another year and only put us further in the hole? People who feel this way are "over the top?" Come on, man. That is being completely dishonest and showing complete disrespect for the large majority of how our fan base views this program.

    2. If we are "not in bad shape talent wise," why in the heck are we DEAD LAST in this conference and losing to SoCon teams on a year to year basis? If Calipari is correct in preferring talent over experience and our talent isn't bad, how can our performance on the court be this bad.

    3. The program can be turned around and headed in the right direction with a "few minor changes." Once again, we are dead last without an ounce of hope. I can't think of any program in any sport that is dead last that thinks it can be turned around with a few minor changes.

    This is going to take a complete overhaul to turn this thing around and we are just wasting time by sticking to a coach that has proven himself to be in way over his head. If Jeremy Foley lives by "What should be done eventually, must be done immediately." I hope Hyman will not be so bullheaded to live by "What should be done eventually, must be done by April."

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    Hook Williamson

  • William Gunter said...

    I don't think Marshall is the home run hire that everybody thinks he is. I am not completely sold he would be my top candidate if something should happen at South Carolina.

    I know Marshall, spent time with him when at Winthrop and think there are a ton of positives. I think it is a real shame that he was not interviewed the first time the job was open. Again, the first time I am not sure he was the guy but there was zero for him not to at least be given an interview to see how he did.

    Now I think he is still a solid coach. The thing is could he build the staff to recruit at South Carolina. Earl Grant was a key cog in his staff at Winthrop and is now at Clemson. Would he keep Mike Boynton as a tie to the Gamecock program? He probably should but he should would also have to go out and get a big time recruiter that can go throughout the southeast and land guys. He would need two recruiters and again that could be Boynton and another guy. Then could he find the coach to be a bench asset?

    Marshall is an X's and O's guy but also has quite an ego on him and the attitude towards people would be the same as Darrin Horn. If he does that and doesn't produce in four years, how would he be received.

    Marshall has recruited pretty good at Wichita State. He knows how to recruit to his system. IMO their is currently 1 Team in the SEC in Kentucky that is better than Marshall's current WSU Team. Not sure what this guy has to do to wake people up. Your never going to get the guaranteed thing unless you hire a Calipari or such when we cannot do with a restrained dollar figure. I also have tired of people talking about how Hyman hired Patterson at TCU which has no relevance to his Basketball hires. They tend to look over the fact that Hyman hired Neil Dougherty at TCU for Basketball which was a huge bust. I am really concerned with Hyman's ability to hire if he truly does bring Horn back. With that said I think Hyman will make the change and do the right thing at the end of the year.

    This post was edited by roosterrizk1 on 2/14/2012 at 1:12 PM

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    roosterrizk1

  • Hook Williamson said...

    Wild Bill, I respect the effort you put into covering basketball for TBS and all the other sites you cover while also spending time on 560 The Team (listen almost every day), but I can't believe you actually believe this. This just sounds like talking points from Hyman/Horn and I not buying a word of it.

    1. How can you say that people who view this program as a sinking ship don't have a legit concern that another year with Horn is only going to set us back another year and only put us further in the hole? People who feel this way are "over the top?" Come on, man. That is being completely dishonest and showing complete disrespect for the large majority of how our fan base views this program.

    2. If we are "not in bad shape talent wise," why in the heck are we DEAD LAST in this conference and losing to SoCon teams on a year to year basis? If Calipari is correct in preferring talent over experience and our talent isn't bad, how can our performance on the court be this bad.

    3. The program can be turned around and headed in the right direction with a "few minor changes." Once again, we are dead last without an ounce of hope. I can't think of any program in any sport that is dead last that thinks it can be turned around with a few minor changes.

    This is going to take a complete overhaul to turn this thing around and we are just wasting time by sticking to a coach that has proven himself to be in way over his head. If Jeremy Foley lives by "What should be done eventually, must be done immediately." I hope Hyman will not be so bullheaded to live by "What should be done eventually, must be done by April."

    I think the coaching is an issue. Outside of Damontre Harris and Sam Muldrow (R.J. Slawson slightly) nobody has really developed. That is an issue.

    Why was Ramon Galloway an average player at best for South Carolina but goes to LaSalle and is playing much better. La Salle isn't the SEC but it isn't a horrible conference. Who is to say that Brian Richardson who had offers from Alabama and Virginia doesn't leave and all of a sudden under new coaching start shooting it very well and playing much better. Who is to say that a new coach doesn't come into South Carolina and he start performing better.

    That is kind of my point. I don't think there is NCAA Tournament talent on the roster but the Galloway thing is what really makes my point. People want to argue that he would be doing the same thing at South Carolina but I don't believe it. A new system, new idea's and a new philosphy could be very good for guys like Bruce Ellington, Brian Richardson, Damien Leonard, R.J. Slawson, Damontre Harris and Anthony Gill.

    You look at those guys and you see solid offer lists. It is not like South Carolina is beating out Winthrop and Coastal Carolina for kids. The staff isn't that bad of recruiters, I think the talent is there to be competitive right off the bat (or should be much more competitive right now). Just running down the offer list:

    Ellington - Auburn, Tennessee
    Richardson - Virginia, Alabama
    Leonard - Arizona, Oklahoma State, Virginia Tech (Several more that dropped off)
    Slawson - Auburn, Clemson
    Anthony Gill - Virginia Tech (committed early or would have had more)
    Damontre Harris - UConn, Florida, Virginia Tech, North Carolina State

    Those players should (and I believe do) give you a core of guys that should be competitive going forward (and again right now).

    That is more of my point than anything else. That is why I say that the program itself is not as in bad as shape talent wise as people try to make it out to be. I have seen some compare it to the Steve Newton and there is really no comparison and that is where I see the "over the top" fans coming from.

    Follow WG on Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillGunter247

    William Gunter

  • Hook Williamson said...

    Wild Bill, I respect the effort you put into covering basketball for TBS and all the other sites you cover while also spending time on 560 The Team (listen almost every day), but I can't believe you actually believe this. This just sounds like talking points from Hyman/Horn and I not buying a word of it.

    1. How can you say that people who view this program as a sinking ship don't have a legit concern that another year with Horn is only going to set us back another year and only put us further in the hole? People who feel this way are "over the top?" Come on, man. That is being completely dishonest and showing complete disrespect for the large majority of how our fan base views this program.

    2. If we are "not in bad shape talent wise," why in the heck are we DEAD LAST in this conference and losing to SoCon teams on a year to year basis? If Calipari is correct in preferring talent over experience and our talent isn't bad, how can our performance on the court be this bad.

    3. The program can be turned around and headed in the right direction with a "few minor changes." Once again, we are dead last without an ounce of hope. I can't think of any program in any sport that is dead last that thinks it can be turned around with a few minor changes.

    This is going to take a complete overhaul to turn this thing around and we are just wasting time by sticking to a coach that has proven himself to be in way over his head. If Jeremy Foley lives by "What should be done eventually, must be done immediately." I hope Hyman will not be so bullheaded to live by "What should be done eventually, must be done by April."

    Kudo's to you. I agree 100%. Cannot excuse Horn's loses any longer. I personally have gotten tired of the excuses for this guy. We lose to Tenn St and Elon and all the other bad losses and sit dead last in a very average SEC Conference yet we are supposed to believe one more year will change that. Not happening.

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    chucktcock

  • Whittle, what was your reaction or thoughts when Horn promoted the assistant coach back to a floor coach after he was demoted before. I remember that there was an assistant out there that you liked that had AAU connections in Atlanta i believe. Do you know if Horn considered him?

    Railbird

  • Railbird said...

    Whittle, what was your reaction or thoughts when Horn promoted the assistant coach back to a floor coach after he was demoted before. I remember that there was an assistant out there that you liked that had AAU connections in Atlanta i believe. Do you know if Horn considered him?

    Whittle doesn't really cover basketball but I will make sure he see's this and gets back to you.

    Follow WG on Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillGunter247

    William Gunter

  • Hook Williamson said...

    Wild Bill, I respect the effort you put into covering basketball for TBS and all the other sites you cover while also spending time on 560 The Team (listen almost every day), but I can't believe you actually believe this. This just sounds like talking points from Hyman/Horn and I not buying a word of it.

    1. How can you say that people who view this program as a sinking ship don't have a legit concern that another year with Horn is only going to set us back another year and only put us further in the hole? People who feel this way are "over the top?" Come on, man. That is being completely dishonest and showing complete disrespect for the large majority of how our fan base views this program.

    2. If we are "not in bad shape talent wise," why in the heck are we DEAD LAST in this conference and losing to SoCon teams on a year to year basis? If Calipari is correct in preferring talent over experience and our talent isn't bad, how can our performance on the court be this bad.

    3. The program can be turned around and headed in the right direction with a "few minor changes." Once again, we are dead last without an ounce of hope. I can't think of any program in any sport that is dead last that thinks it can be turned around with a few minor changes.

    This is going to take a complete overhaul to turn this thing around and we are just wasting time by sticking to a coach that has proven himself to be in way over his head. If Jeremy Foley lives by "What should be done eventually, must be done immediately." I hope Hyman will not be so bullheaded to live by "What should be done eventually, must be done by April."

    By the way, my point is relation to the program and not the coach.

    I am in no way saying that things would be much improved for South Carolina if they just give Darrin Horn one more year. I am just saying that I think the talent of the program is better than what is being shown on the floor each and every night.

    Follow WG on Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillGunter247

    William Gunter

  • William Gunter said...

    By the way, my point is relation to the program and not the coach.

    I am in no way saying that things would be much improved for South Carolina if they just give Darrin Horn one more year. I am just saying that I think the talent of the program is better than what is being shown on the floor each and every night.

    William:
    So, Marshall isn't the right guy for us now. If we have an opening tomorrow, who are your top 5 guys for the job?

    LilJerySeinfeld ●

  • I agree with this, but then you point the finger to the coach...and if our product is improving but our numbers are decreasing, or are stagnent then what do we do?? The kids are talented but they cant coach themselves.

    BTW on a side note. WIth all of this said I really respect the way everyone is handling this thread. No one is bashing one another and people are asking intelligent questions and staying on the topic of gamecock basketball. This is the way it should be done. Look forward to hearing more thoughts...

    chucktcock

  • The incessant Hyman and Horn bashing is getting tiresome.

    blessedcock

  • blessedcock said...

    The incessant Hyman and Horn bashing is getting tiresome.

    Disagree in this thread blessed. Others maybe, but I think this is an honest thread with no bashing in here. Negative comments to some questions, yes, but that comes with the territory when we are horrible at something.

    chucktcock

  • LilJerySeinfeld said...

    William: So, Marshall isn't the right guy for us now. If we have an opening tomorrow, who are your top 5 guys for the job?

    There are a lot of variables there like say money. I don't really know who the "right" guy is.

    If it were me and I had to make a list the guys I would talk to in no real order because I think they would all be interesting candidates are:

    Norm Roberts (UF assistant, left all the talent for Steve Lavin to be successful last year)
    Gregg Marshall
    Tommy Amaker (Average tenures at Seton Hall/Michigan. Did he learn from it would be the question)
    Tubby Smith (Sounds crazy but he knows the SEC, would bring a stable presence)
    Rob Lanier (Texas asst. has been asst for UF as well. Didn't do well at Siena but a guy I would talk to. Kind of in the Tony Barbee mold)

    Those are just some guys but again there are variables and things could chance if Horn was actually fired. Which I tend to side with JC right now and do not believe he will be.

    Follow WG on Twitter: https://twitter.com/WillGunter247

    William Gunter

  • William Gunter said...

    I don't think Hyman and Horn's relationship is as buddy/buddy as people think. It is more of a situation where Hyman is going to give his coaches every opportunity in the book. He gave Dave Odom plenty of time to get things going and was willing to give him one more year because of Downey, Fredrick, Archie, Holmes and Muldrow. Hyman felt they were heading in the right direction with that group.

    I think with Horn it is the same way. I have criticized Hyman in the past for his handling of a few financial aspects but it is hard to criticize him for how he treats his coaches. He gives them complete support which in the profession is a great thing. Coaches know they can come work for him and they will be given time to build things the way they see fit. As much of a concern as I have about how much Hyman might be willing to pay the next coach, his record with giving his coaches time to develop is solid and well respected in at least the basketball coaching profession.

    Firing someone is always hard to do and I do think at times Hyman struggles with that but at the same time I believe he knows when he has a bad product. With the product that Horn has coming back next year (Ellington, Leonard, Gill, Harris and maybe Slawson) I can understand Hyman looking at him and believing that next year is the year that there needs to be significant improvement.

    A lot of over the top people will tell you it will set the program back but I don't believe so. South Carolina is not in bad shape talent wise. There needs to be some definite development with players and some changes to the in-game coaching but the program can be turned around and heading in the right direction with a few minor changes.

    Back to the bottom line though, I don't think Hyman has let his relationship with Hyman affect his thinking but instead is going to give him every opportunity to succeed.

    Excellent post. If he keeps Horn which I think he will I hope he has enough input from people that know basketball to realize some big changes need to be made. It will be difficult, but he needs to hire an experienced assitant bench coach that know x's and o's. Probably needs to get rid ot 2 assitant's, keep the best recruiter, hire a good bench coach and a top notch recruiter for the other spot. Will be hard to do because they may thing its potentially a 1 year gig, but I don't see how he could keep this staff. THIS is not my first choice, but if we are stuck with Horn, I think these changes and some other's have to be made to have any chance.

    VOR ●

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