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Let's try something.......

  • Yes, We all know Tuesday's Loss was a bad Loss......Frankly, I believe we are the better team, I believe if we played them nine other times, we would win all nine..........But instead of just bashing Coach Horn and everyone on the team's brains in, Let's have a discussion........In this Discussion, Everyone Can Chime in and Say What we could do differently scheme Wise, Line-up Wise, Position Wise, etc............but a couple rules:

    1.) Firing Horn Is Not an option (This isn't about whether you approve or disapprove or Horn, We have plenty of threads on that already!)
    2.) Recruit Better Players is not a option (Basically, Use Who we've got on the team already!)
    3.) You can Put Ellington into the Line-up Since He'll be on the team

    Basically, What would you do and suggest If you were a assistant coach or head coach of the team?
    I think it would actually be cool if we could do a thread like this for each individual opponent (though i know USC Basketball isn't exactly Generating Alot of Interest right now!) But Frankly, I just really enjoy the game of basketball, and I know I don't know a heck of alot about it, but to me it's fun learning about the game........

    JRol003

  • I admit Coach Horn knows more about basketball than me, and I am not qualified to give him advice, but to participate in your thread, I would suggest that after watching Leonard and Richardson miss several outside shots, I would have told them to try instead to get the ball to Gill and/or Harris and see if they could score in the paint. Gill only took 5 shots and made 4 of them, so I think we would have been more successful in that game getting him more opportunities. I might also have suggested that the guards drive the ball into the lane, if that option was available, and see if they could get a good shot closer to the basket.

    This post was edited by Jelsik Sturm on 11/17/2011 at 6:37 AM

    Jelsik Sturm

  • One thing we did once against Elon was post Lakeem up and it worked with an easy basket.
    It would seem that with the opposing PG guarding him, this might be a spot where we would have a slight advantage. Maybe try that a little more.

    bluegrasscock

  • I like the game of basketball myself and have played it for a long time at various levels. I admit Coach Horn may know more then me but it seems like he has a hard time making game time adjustments.

    This team has a lot of potential but the offense we run and run and run doesn't play to our strengths. I think we should play more inside out with this team. Throw it in the post to DH and AG to get the offense started. Gill has very good hands and tends to make go decisions with the ball. He is pretty good around the basket and I think if Harris slows down on some of his moves he can be deadly down low.

    I have seen time and time again the same offensive set run but it is not working. Teams have figured it out and the high screens take our big men away from the basket more often then not. It ends up way the shooter is taking a contested shot with only Harris or Gill or Cooke as the only rebounder. Plus I would to see some pump fakes and drives on some of those contested shots. the midrange game can be a deadly weapon if used right. If you can hit those 14-18 jump shots regularly it loosen up the defenses and they cannot key on just the 3 or sag into the middle to stop drives into the lane or double team the post.

    I think with some adjustments we could be very effective and efficient on offense. JMHO

    JessupGamecock

  • I looked at the stats for the first two games. Leonard and Richardson are shooting so poorly that they are really hurting us right now. Coach Horn is going to have to limit their shots until they can prove they can make some. If one of them starts a game 0-5 or 1-6, they need to be told to only shoot if they are WIDE open.

    We have to get Gill more shots. The kid is shooting 83% from the floor. But he is only taking 6 shots per game. Gotta let him shoot more. Coach Horn said he told them to play inside/out against Elon, but I don't think they listened.

    We also need to try to get Williams some open shots. He is shooting a good percentage, but hasn't taken many shots. He needs to be open to shoot his jumper, but the kid can shoot if he gets a good shot.

    Our offense is the problem right now. We held Elon to 58 points, and that should be few enough to allow us to win.

    Jelsik Sturm

  • JessupGamecock said...

    I like the game of basketball myself and have played it for a long time at various levels. I admit Coach Horn may know more then me but it seems like he has a hard time making game time adjustments.

    This team has a lot of potential but the offense we run and run and run doesn't play to our strengths. I think we should play more inside out with this team. Throw it in the post to DH and AG to get the offense started. Gill has very good hands and tends to make go decisions with the ball. He is pretty good around the basket and I think if Harris slows down on some of his moves he can be deadly down low.

    I have seen time and time again the same offensive set run but it is not working. Teams have figured it out and the high screens take our big men away from the basket more often then not. It ends up way the shooter is taking a contested shot with only Harris or Gill or Cooke as the only rebounder. Plus I would to see some pump fakes and drives on some of those contested shots. the midrange game can be a deadly weapon if used right. If you can hit those 14-18 jump shots regularly it loosen up the defenses and they cannot key on just the 3 or sag into the middle to stop drives into the lane or double team the post.

    I think with some adjustments we could be very effective and efficient on offense. JMHO

    One thing that I have noticed for about 20 years is that we have never been particularly good at feeding the post.

    A lot of that has to do with the body types and ability of the guys we have in the post. But it shouldn't be as difficult as it seems to be to get them touches. They need to get Harris calmed down in there to where he is making the point blank shots. Taking more time perhaps than he is. Seems like he shoots a lot quickly and off balance.

    I will say that in all three games we have made an effort early to go inside and have not been terribly effective at converting those.

    I agree that it would be appropriate to run more plays for Gill who seems to be very efficient and skilled in there. And against the mid-majors, he ought to be able to get good shots. In the SEC it will be more difficult.

    I don't know what they need to do to get more outside shots to drop for the guards. A good portion of the misses were open looks that you would expect a good shooter to hit at 50% clip. A lot of the misses were less good shots of course.

    VBCock

  • Jelsik Sturm said...

    I looked at the stats for the first two games. Leonard and Richardson are shooting so poorly that they are really hurting us right now. Coach Horn is going to have to limit their shots until they can prove they can make some. If one of them starts a game 0-5 or 1-6, they need to be told to only shoot if they are WIDE open.

    We have to get Gill more shots. The kid is shooting 83% from the floor. But he is only taking 6 shots per game. Gotta let him shoot more. Coach Horn said he told them to play inside/out against Elon, but I don't think they listened.

    We also need to try to get Williams some open shots. He is shooting a good percentage, but hasn't taken many shots. He needs to be open to shoot his jumper, but the kid can shoot if he gets a good shot.

    Our offense is the problem right now. We held Elon to 58 points, and that should be few enough to allow us to win.

    I agree for the most part that the defense was good enough to win, though it got sloppy in spurts where they just did not defend the corner.

    I agree Gill needs more touches.

    I'm not sure about Brenton Williams. I don't know how effective he is going to be.

    I think I agree about reducing the number of threes from the shooting guard position at least until one of them starts stroking them.

    One thing that Horn seemed unwilling to do last year and did not really do Tuesday was put a stop sign on the young shooters. He let Bruce shoot and shoot and shoot. Maybe he told him not to, but there was never any action taken during the games to limit it. I suspect there is an intention not to hurt confidence and to let the players play through it but at some point you can't let them keep at it.

    I don't think it was so bad this week but if it persists and there is no sign of them making them, then he needs to step in an play someone else to impress that on the player. IMO.

    I guess I have been most concerned that players who aren't playing the correct way don't have it reflected in their playing time or it doesn't seem like it is reflected anyway.

    What do you think about that?

    VBCock

  • VBCock said...

    I agree for the most part that the defense was good enough to win, though it got sloppy in spurts where they just did not defend the corner.

    I agree Gill needs more touches.

    I'm not sure about Brenton Williams. I don't know how effective he is going to be.

    I think I agree about reducing the number of threes from the shooting guard position at least until one of them starts stroking them.

    One thing that Horn seemed unwilling to do last year and did not really do Tuesday was put a stop sign on the young shooters. He let Bruce shoot and shoot and shoot. Maybe he told him not to, but there was never any action taken during the games to limit it. I suspect there is an intention not to hurt confidence and to let the players play through it but at some point you can't let them keep at it.

    I don't think it was so bad this week but if it persists and there is no sign of them making them, then he needs to step in an play someone else to impress that on the player. IMO.

    I guess I have been most concerned that players who aren't playing the correct way don't have it reflected in their playing time or it doesn't seem like it is reflected anyway.

    What do you think about that?

    I have been watching the tape of the Elon game. A lot of the shots Leonard took were pretty good shots, they just didn' t fall. He has the reputation of a good shooter, and you don't get that by missing shots. I have to believe that he will soon have a game in which he makes several shots, and I hope it is the next game. I think every player needs to learn the difference between a good shot and a not so good one, and have the discipline to only take the good ones. But you have to learn that. Most players take some shots that are not good ones, but you hope that we don't take many of those.

    I doubt that Coach Horn has told Leonard or Richardson to shoot whenever they get it, no matter what. But I think he probably gives them a lot of room to decide whether they have a shot they can make, or not. That works good if they are making a decent percentage, but when they are cold, they need to maybe try driving the ball a little instead of shooting threes, or passing it to Gill or Harris. Gill needs to get more shots.

    Rich is averaging 20 minutes a game, and Leonard 24.5. When Ellington returns, he will probably get some of those minutes, as well as some from our other guards, and that might be helpful in limiting the shots that right now are not falling. Hopefully, Brian and Damien can both start making more of their shots, and USC can become more efficient and productive on the offensive end. Inability to score was the major problem last year, I don't want that to be the case again, but it certainly was against Elon. It will be interesting to see what happens with Ellington on the team.

    Williams has a nice shot and he is very good with it, but he kind of shoots his jumper from under his chin, so he needs to be pretty open to shoot it. But he is quick and a very good jumper, so when he is closely guarded, I think he can drive by his defender and shoot a floater, or maybe take it to the rim. I like him and think he can be a good player for us.

    Jelsik Sturm

  • Jelsik Sturm said...

    I looked at the stats for the first two games. Leonard and Richardson are shooting so poorly that they are really hurting us right now. Coach Horn is going to have to limit their shots until they can prove they can make some. If one of them starts a game 0-5 or 1-6, they need to be told to only shoot if they are WIDE open.

    We have to get Gill more shots. The kid is shooting 83% from the floor. But he is only taking 6 shots per game. Gotta let him shoot more. Coach Horn said he told them to play inside/out against Elon, but I don't think they listened.

    We also need to try to get Williams some open shots. He is shooting a good percentage, but hasn't taken many shots. He needs to be open to shoot his jumper, but the kid can shoot if he gets a good shot.

    Our offense is the problem right now. We held Elon to 58 points, and that should be few enough to allow us to win.

    I think Gill needds to get more shots also. He has a good feel for the game but he is not aggressive enough at times. On the flip side I think he gets too aggressive at times also but that is youth and being a freshmen. He needs to take about 6+ shots a game but with the guards shoting so much I doubt he ever sniffs that number this year at least.

    I also like Williams a lot and think he can be a good to above average guard with some time. He does have that funky looking shot but I think he can make do with it. I have seen a lot of strnage looking releases in my time and somehow those guys that shot them that way make them work. The thing I like about him is that he plays within the flow of the game. He makes some very good decision with and without the ball. I just haven't gotten a feel on his defense yet??

    As far as our SGs, I can't for the life of me figure them out. I think they need to forgo some of those 3s they shot and get a little closer to maybe get a few to go down and then start shooting the 3. They have open good looks curl off screens but they are just not hitting them at all. Rich actually put the ball on the floor in the Elon game and hit a midrange jumper. I would like to see more of that. It gets the guy guarding the post to defend the driving player and opens up the middle for the post player which get leads to easy buckets or put backs.

    JessupGamecock

  • VBCock said...

    I agree for the most part that the defense was good enough to win, though it got sloppy in spurts where they just did not defend the corner.

    I agree Gill needs more touches.

    I'm not sure about Brenton Williams. I don't know how effective he is going to be.

    I think I agree about reducing the number of threes from the shooting guard position at least until one of them starts stroking them.

    One thing that Horn seemed unwilling to do last year and did not really do Tuesday was put a stop sign on the young shooters. He let Bruce shoot and shoot and shoot. Maybe he told him not to, but there was never any action taken during the games to limit it. I suspect there is an intention not to hurt confidence and to let the players play through it but at some point you can't let them keep at it.

    I don't think it was so bad this week but if it persists and there is no sign of them making them, then he needs to step in an play someone else to impress that on the player. IMO.

    I guess I have been most concerned that players who aren't playing the correct way don't have it reflected in their playing time or it doesn't seem like it is reflected anyway.

    What do you think about that?

    I haven't seen any type of repriminds in playing time for taking bad shots or anything. Slawson shot some bad and quick 3s down the stretch in the Elon in which Horn should have been fuming but got no reaction. I think when we are not doing well he seems to become lost or detached for some reason. When we are winning he is up and moving and coaching more. Now I am not at the games and I am only watching on TV or my computer, so someone who attends the games has more insight then me on that.

    The only issue with benching players for missing good wide open shots is that it can kill their confidence. On the other hand letting them continue to shot and kill the team is not a good option either. It is a fine line that you have to walk with young players these days.

    JessupGamecock

  • I agree with others on the need for more inside/out play. If we do that, then we also get easier three point attempts. While I agree that Leonard and others missed some good looks, I think many of them were forced or hurried.

    Hondocock

  • IMO we had a lot of uncontested shots the first half but really forced up too many 3's down the stretch, especially the last 2 minutes. If we had gotten 2 2-points shots following the 2 missed first shots on the one and ones we would have cut the lead to one. Having Gill and Cooke on the bench was a tremendous factor as well. And my major gripe with Coach Horn was when left Geathers in the game from the 7:50 mark until about 5 minutes to go. We didn't have many scorers on the floor at that time and needed an offensive threat at the 5 position. And without Anthony or Malik being available I guess he couldn't pull RJ for his poor shot choices, but I think I would have taken my chances on Cooke's experience to keep from fouling out in that situation. But when you shoot as poorly as we did you don't give yourself much of a chance to win.

    signature image signature image signature image

    one gamecock

  • 1) I'm old school - 50% of attempts and 67% of makes in the paint, anything less and you have an inconsistent team (see USC).

    2) Post up Jackson and Cooke (see #`1) esp. with Jackson"s size advantage.

    3) Don't make harder than it is, make the easy passes quickly and take the easy jumpers.

    Bullseye61

  • One thing I did see with Leonard is that he is making attempts to get inside.....I haven't sat down and rewatched the whole game, but I know in the first 10 mins I can recall him dribbling inside, and missing a 2, and dishing a assist to Harris for a easy deuce.........and his first couple shots were bad shots selection wise, but then he had about 3 wide open shots......and I can remember when they said he was 0 for 7 I was like dang, it's not even halfway through the first half yet! I wish Brenton wouldn't have stepped out of bounds on that dunk! Dude is fearless going up for dunks when he has the opening! To me, Brenton and Damien, from what I've seen, have played with a edge the first couple of games. And Damien just hasn't made his shots! I agree that Gill seems passive at times.....would like for him to get a killer mentality down low, because he's the most skilled big man we have had offensively in YEARS!!! I would not be surprised if he contended for first team all sec before he's done at USC!

    JRol003

  • JRol003 said...

    One thing I did see with Leonard is that he is making attempts to get inside.....I haven't sat down and rewatched the whole game, but I know in the first 10 mins I can recall him dribbling inside, and missing a 2, and dishing a assist to Harris for a easy deuce.........and his first couple shots were bad shots selection wise, but then he had about 3 wide open shots......and I can remember when they said he was 0 for 7 I was like dang, it's not even halfway through the first half yet! I wish Brenton wouldn't have stepped out of bounds on that dunk! Dude is fearless going up for dunks when he has the opening! To me, Brenton and Damien, from what I've seen, have played with a edge the first couple of games. And Damien just hasn't made his shots! I agree that Gill seems passive at times.....would like for him to get a killer mentality down low, because he's the most skilled big man we have had offensively in YEARS!!! I would not be surprised if he contended for first team all sec before he's done at USC!

    Leonard has lots of potential to be a good player, not just a good shooter. Gill is going to have a great career at USC. And I agree with you on Brenton Williams. He is a really good 3 point shooter, but he has to be wide open to shoot it. But he can also drive the ball.

    Jelsik Sturm